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Jan 10, 2022

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Shannon Austin, Executive Director of Vocational Rehabilitation at the Pennsylvania (PA) Department of Labor and Industry and Carole Clancy, Bureau Director of Special Education at the Commonwealth of PADepartment of Education join Carol Pankow and Missy Diehl in the VRTAC-QM Studio to talk about the important partnership between Vocational Rehabilitation and Education and how collaboration and commitment helped create and implement a strong partnership in Pennsylvania.


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VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Education and VR - Let’s Talk Collaboration




Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.


Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute, I am so fortunate to have representatives from both VR and education to join me in the studio in an extra special bonus as having my colleague Missy deal helping me facilitate this conversation. Today we have Shannon Austin, Executive Director of Vocational Rehabilitation at the Pennsylvania Department of Labor and Industry. And Carol Clancy, Bureau Director of Special Education at the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Education. So welcome to you all.



Carol Clancy: Thank You.


Shannon: Thank you. Glad to be here.


Carol: Today, we're going to dig into the very important topic of the partnership between VR and education that was brought to the forefront through the passage of W Iowa. When Missy talked with me about tackling this topic, you two were at the top of the list for people to connect with. we're now seven and a half years post WIOA passage, and states are at varying degrees when it comes to collaboration and cooperation between VR and education. We know that there are so many linkages between IDEA and WIOA in terms of transition and collaboration, and it's critical for a state as large as Pennsylvania. With well over one hundred and fifty thousand students with disabilities. We're really excited to hear from our Special ED and VR directors in Pennsylvania and how they've been able to not only talk about collaboration but create and implement a strong partnership. So let's dig in. So, Carol, I'm going to kick this to you first. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and your agency and kind of the whole landscape in Pennsylvania around the students with disabilities?


Carol Clancy: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having us here today. It's a pleasure to talk about this topic that we are super passionate about. I'm the director of Special Education for the Pennsylvania Department of Education. I am one of many bureaus at the Pennsylvania Department of Education that works collaboratively to support K through 12 plus students as part of the Office of Elementary and Secondary Education. The role of the Bureau Special Education is to ensure that students eligible under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act receive the educational services they're entitled to, to ensure that LEAs maintain compliance with IDEA and to provide the technical assistance to the local education agencies to ensure they have the knowledge base and the skill set, as well as the best practices to meet those expectations. There are about 300,000 students that receive special education services across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and 500 local education agencies. Each one of those local education agencies are ultimately responsible to ensure providing free and appropriate public education. Pennsylvania is also divided up into 29 regions. Each one of those regions has an intermediate unit that provides regional support and services to those local educational agencies in a variety of capacities. These intermediate units have training consultants that are able to go into the schools, into classrooms and to provide the necessary coaching and training that teachers may need. They are a central support system for that region and a liaison between the local education agencies and the Bureau of Special Education. Finally, the Bureau Special Education also has our technical assistance arm, the Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance System Network. This technical assistance provides an array of trainings, resources, asynchronous synchronous coaching supports to intermediate units, as well as local education agencies based on needs that are surfaced through monitoring or need service from the field that is also divided up into three different regions a west, central and eastern region.


Carol: Holy smokes. That is a bunch. Thank you, Carol. So, Shannon, I'm going to kick it over to you. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and about your agency? And kind of like, how many offices do you have, how many students are you serving and all of that good stuff?


Shannon: Yeah. Pleasure to be here with you guys today and just really talk about our partnership with the Department of Education and working very closely with Carol over the last two and a half years. Currently within OVR. I am the executive director of OVR. We have about eight hundred and fifty staff or at full capacity. We are considered a combined agency, so we have the Bureau of Vocational Rehab Services and the Bureau of Blindness and Visual Services. We're serving every disability population. We also are one of the few states that have a comprehensive rehab training center, HTC Commonwealth Technical Institute, where we are also doing training and Pre-ETS and working with young people in this space. We have 21 offices, of which six are co-located in various locations throughout the state. Structurally, when we're looking at doing transition and pre-employment transition services, we have a division that is dedicated to transition services and pre-employment transition services, and they really focus on the policy development training and they're doing training with the VR staff. CRRP community rehab facilities providers that we may on board to do services in this space, employers at times to develop different work based learning experiences and may be key stakeholders that we may have to engage with. And then the crucial part that we're here to really talk about is implementing of programs and services.


We currently have vocational rehab counselors and early reach coordinators that are assigned to all the school districts that we have, and that includes the public, the private and those cyber schools. We have a referral system that is in place where they are working with the school districts, whether they are going in. We have a resource schedule for the cyber schools where we're working with them. We also have designated days where we're going in there monthly, weekly, biweekly into school districts based on just the referrals that we have throughout within a certain school district to meet the needs of those students to implement pre-employment transition services. And with that, some of the structural things that we have that we are really doing with the school districts or the LEAs within the Commonwealth, we have a lot of interagency transition, continual meetings that we're doing. So we really take a team approach. And as we go in a little bit further and talk about some of our MOU work, it's really going to highlight some of the things how we look at transition services and pre-employment transition services within the Commonwealth. Another thing that may make us slightly different than some states, we also have Act.

26, what is a state mandate for over in collaboration with the Department of Education to really collect and report data related to high school students with disabilities and with facilitating the process of job and career development between the local education agencies and employers. And according to the outline of Act 26 in coordination with LEAs, OVR, provides information in developing individual education plans for high school students with disabilities to ensure that job skills training is included in their plans when appropriate and when possible. Overall, our staff will attend education planning meetings, so IEPs, in person or alternative format, whether it's video conferencing conference calls when invited by the LEA's. So that's the basic structure of what we have in over and kind of where we're at. We currently in a year, we're serving anywhere. When we begin to look at the numbers, we have a data sharing agreement between us and VSC where we share data. And with that, in any year, we are serving anywhere from 165,000to 180,000 students that meet that criteria of 14 to 21 years of age in the state that fall under pre-employment transition services.


Carol: Wow, that's a bunch, great.


Missy: Are we ready to dive into the next question, Carol?


Carol: You bet. Missy.


Missy: All right. So can we talk a little bit? Maybe we'll start with Carol again. We'll just kind of yin and yang. You two describe a little bit about your relationship between the two entities, Education and VR in Pennsylvania and what it looked like before what it looks like now. How it's evolved?


Carol Clancy: Sure. Shannon and I started in our positions about the same time, and we are both really motivated to cause a positive change, particularly in this partnership between OVR and education. We actually met three Decembers ago, which is amazing, but I know that we both walked into that room knowing what we both wanted out of that meeting and not sure we were going to attain it. But it was very quick into that conversation. We realized we were on the exact same page and it created a strong synergy not just between Shannon and myself, but our teams. It was really an enlightening moment when we were like, we are in the right place at the right time. So it was that December meeting that we started to really have the conversation about what are the issues in the field and how we wanted to work together to fix them for the better outcomes of students with disabilities and our shared passions. And it was from that time that we set the mission, the vision and the agreement that we were going to have a stronger collaboration. I think what helps this work tremendously is that Shannon and I are direct from the field. We came from the field and we experienced the complexity of implementing and partnering on this work, and we experience what happens when there isn't a strong collaboration.

 So bringing that lens and keeping that at the forefront of our minds as we are developing the implementation of the MOU, I think is what is keeping it strong. We certainly are just the run of the work, but we are not the ones doing the work. We have a very strong team beneath both of us that are worker bees that are very passionate, that really are bringing the work together in creating the moment you in a way that can be implemented. I think communication is the key. We have had structure team meetings that have happened regularly, either on a monthly or a twice a month meeting. But Shannon and I communicate regularly. I can commit that we communicate weekly. It may be a. Well, meeting, it may be a conversation between the two of us. It may be a quick meeting. Phone calls for driving somewhere. It could be an email or it could simply be a text. What we communicate minimally on a weekly basis just to make sure the work is moving.


Shannon: I don't want to duplicate what Carol has said because it's all accurate and true. I just want to put it in, probably in a historical perspective of really our relationship. Prior to us coming together and working and doing a lot of the collaborative work over ourselves had found ourselves, and we had an RSA monitoring and we had some corrective actions that we had to deal with and one of them which was updating our MOU with education. With that being said, our MOU had I think it was back in 2011, so it was very outdated and that was our starting point. And prior to that, there really was limited communication between OVR and education. And I think us stepping into our roles, as Carol said, coming from the field brought a real fresh perspective and a commitment on both of our parts, really to come together to make it work. We brought our field perspective, we brought commitment and leadership to our conversations and as we knew that we had to do some compliance stuff, which was the beginning of our relationship and working on the menu and working with the tax center and really coming into a comprehensive agreement with you guys. It was our starting point. And with that commitment of time of bimonthly meetings to really work on the MOU, you start to learn that one. We were speaking different languages, but we have the same intent and collaborating and coming together to really make sure that we were ensuring that we were having a seamless transition of services for the students that both of us were working with coming through our system. And we wanted them to go from school to work and working with both of us as Carroll does her part and we transition them, whether it's to the post-secondary education or to work and through that process. It has been just a growing. At first, I want to say it probably wasn't easy, but it became very organic and it just grew with time and just really our commitment to coming together to implement a very seamless service between both of us and our teams as we developed MOU for the Commonwealth.


Missy: One of the things that I noticed was you too have been so successful in bridging that language barrier between the language and the way that VR works and the language and the way that education works and presented that united front looking at that best way to serve students. How would you say what's that key ingredient, so to speak, in making that happen for Pennsylvania?


Carol Clancy: Sure. So I think that when we brought the teams together, we were able to speak about what are the barriers, what is not working in the field, and they surfaced really quickly on the very most basic level. The fact that sending our students with disabilities or our families with students with disabilities kind of through a gauntlet of fabulousness between the school and adult life was something we didn't want to do anymore. And knowing that this happened because the people that are the front line, the teachers most often who are at the front line are the ones communicating with the families didn't have the information that they need to start. A successful path is where we wanted to start to make sure at the ground level in the trench, the ones doing the work closest to the people needing the support had the information that they need. We wanted to remove those barriers and knowing that if we remove those barriers provided support through the process, we would be able to improve the work that we do. So how did we get to that? I think we really went down to the very granular level. What needs to happen to have this be successful and our building up from that point with the end in mind. It is really important that we are providing tangible supports that can be implemented.

So we've developed a series of resources that are accompanied by webinars and training and coaching. Things can't be implemented if you just say this is how it needs to happen, you need to lead the people that direction. So we created the resources and the training and the support, and we want to have the whole group. So with every resource we create, we are creating a parent or a student companion document in the language that they understand and a visual that they can understand. We're also partnering with all of our groups, so I have worked with our PTI and we all have Shannon and myself have done webinars with them, so we're communicating to our families. Any time we have face time providing updates to my special ED Advisory Panel, to all of our advisory groups, to the local education agencies, to the intermediate regional meetings, every time I meet with them, I'm providing an update about where we are in the work, where we're heading. What they can expect, where they need to look for the information so that we are all on the same page and I'll stop there and let Shannon add in as long as she includes the joint website.


Shannon: So just to add on to what Carol talked about, one of the things it truly has been, Melissa, I think you have seen because you've been here kind of from the very start. It is really, truly been a journey for both of us, and we have been expanded by this partnership professionally, but also agency wide in this partnership that we've had. And the thing that we started out from the very beginning is that we said that we want it to be intentional what we were rolling out. But the thing that I think is key is the really the menu was really the glue that brought all of us together and really gave the building blocks and the fundamental pieces that we needed to be clear on what we wanted to do because we were very specific in our planning and the policy and the procedures and coordinating these services for students. So it gave us an opportunity to outline what services look like between the two agencies. It talked about how OVR was going to work with the local education agencies and planning the transition of these students. It really went into great detail on how we were committed to continuous communication. What was planning going to look like, what was the implementation going to look like was the procedures and policies and trying to coordinate these services for students. We're committed to the commitment of our partnership and making sure that we are implementing the services defining real clear expectations between over BSE, the lawyers and families, to the point that on the very onset, when we started to plan and put together and formulate our workgroup, it included various pieces.

It was me and Carol and our teams. But it also included advocacy groups, parent groups, a consumer. There was providers that were part of that planning because we really wanted to make sure that we were looking through the lens of whoever was touching the MOU so that there was clear understanding of what we were doing. Roles were defined. We drill down on a toolkit that would make it very implementable for the field because I think our full background coming from the field. We did not want it to just be a document in black and white format. We really wanted to be tangible, something that they could put their hands on and really utilize it as a tool in their toolkit in order to bridge the gap of the services between both of our agencies. And I know we'll probably get more into this, but there were several collaborative areas as we talk about the website appointment connection positions that we've had an opportunity and more things are going to come out of this to really shepherd the view and our partnership and how it's going to increase and expand with time.


Carol: You’re teeing us up nicely for the next question. I really get that good sense of that commitment and that collaboration that you all are having. Can you describe the work, now you've given some little nuggets that you all have been doing in Pennsylvania for students and your specific collaboration activities? And Shannon, I'll kick that to you first.


Shannon: So with our 2 years of work, that was the hard part and making sure that we had a planning or strategic MOU in place between the agencies and being clear in our expectations and what we were doing with that, we had a huge rollout here in Pennsylvania and we were able to kind of launch our MOU to the public March 2021. With that being said, me and Carol did a series of ATAND webinars where we introduced the MOU to the public and all stakeholders involved in second transition in Pennsylvania. So the first one had to do with unpacking Demo Q, and the next one had to do with engaging stakeholders and strategic alignment of our efforts. A lot of these were like panel discussions and just laying of information with both our agencies on that. We also launched a new secondary transition website that had various key stakeholders with that, the resources and it really, when you look at the website, it's through the lens. So it's not only done collaboratively, it's through a lens, no matter who the stakeholder is, whether it's the parent, the student, the provider or the school district or individuals from our agency, they really have a sense of the resources that are there and the toolkits that have been built out for them so that they have full understanding of that. We also have some initiatives that I know me and Carol. I'm going to I'm going to leave some of that for you, Carol, to talk about maybe the Navigate Team Navigator position and the youth ambassador position. Those are forthcoming that are really going to support the MOU that we rolled out. But there's been several opportunities where we have collaborated over the last year. We have presented at the transition conference this year to really talk about the MOU. We have a huge presence that was virtually we have worked with. Various agencies like Peel, Hispanic agencies to connect to Hispanic students and parents to really talk about them and the resources that are in place so that it can really highlight all the good work that's going on in Pennsylvania.


Carol: And Shannon, can you share that website address?


Shannon: Yes, I can.


Carol: That'd be great.


Missy: I think it's, right?


Shannon: Yes.


Carol: Excellent. I'm sure our listeners are definitely going to want to check into that. So Carol, Shannon gave you a little leeway there to talk about a couple of things. So please share.


Carol Clancy: Absolutely. I'll comment on 3 joint initiatives. I wanted to say that everything that Shannon is speaking about and that I'm going to speak about is a joint effort. And what I mean is you can't draw a line between what VR did and what education did. It's really just meshed together and collaboration so that the outcomes reflect this joint effort. 3 things I'll talk about is the Employment Navigator, the student ambassador and the Collaboration for Employment initiative we have upcoming this year. So the Student Ambassador Initiative is an effort to create paid work experiences for students with disabilities supported by over to become just that student ambassadors. What their roles would be is to be mentors, role models for other students with disabilities and during the transition world to help guide them along the way. From the student's perspective, these positions would be doing speaking engagements, mentoring, engagement and work experience while they're at the local regional intermediate units or any other approved service provider by OVR. We're really looking forward to this because it speaks volumes to the efforts that we're putting into people with disabilities, meaning that they are the consumers. So what better way to have them be the spokesperson for the services that they are entitled to? So we're looking forward to that beginning. It's in the process of hiring right now. Another initiative that is coming out in the near future are employment navigator positions. Again, these are positions that will be funded by OVR, hired by our regional intermediate units. And the purposes of these positions is to fill that void that occurs between school age services and adult services. We often lose our families or our students in this gauntlet of uncertainty between that path, between school age and adult services. So this employment navigators role will be just that fill that void, for example, benefits counseling. It can be extremely complex for anybody to understand. You really need to be an expert in that area, and it can become a barrier to some people with disabilities seeking employment. So we're going to have the employment navigator become an expert in that area to help support our students or our young adults with disabilities, to navigate that, to lead to continued competitive integrative employment in the future. And the last thing to speak to, which is important, is our collaboration for employment initiative. So this initiative is an adding to the work that's happening by bringing in the Office of Developmental Programs because we know that this support system is a 3 pronged support. How does education, how does employment and how does potential support services work collaboratively to support all students with disabilities to transition to competitive integrated employment? We each have our own languages, our own functions, our own case managers, but our case managers at the field level need to work together.

 Education, the case manager and support coordinators need to work collaboratively to support these families, but we all speak a different language. It's difficult for all three to sit at the table at the same time. So through the state initiative between all three agencies, we will build that condition to happen. We are going to build conditions where the last series of trainings and webinars and intentional time to bring those three parties together at the regional level, to have a conversation, to understand the work that each other does, so they can strengthen the work they do together and to look at their regional needs and develop strategic plans based on their region on how to move this work forward for equity of all students. Because if you look across Pennsylvania, what's available in regions is not equitable and the need may not be the same based on the region. So we're going to have these parties come together, learn about each other, learn about the work that we do understand how they intersect just as similarly as we have between OVR and education, and then work to enhance what's available at the regional level across the state. So there's a lot more to come, but those are three of the top level things that will be coming in the next year.


Carol: So I just want to follow up on that for a minute. So for our listeners who are saying, Oh my gosh, I mean, this all sounds super exciting and they want to get a little more information, would you say Shannon is the best to go to the website? Is there a particular person they could reach out to? What would be the best way for other folks to get a little more information if they want to try to mirror something in their state?


Shannon: I think me and Carol have really kind of kept an open door, so. There's other states that may want to do this, we'd be open for that, to talk to them on some of our things that we have done, but the biggest thing is probably to look at the website, a lot of the resources that were developed. Everything from our menu to the toolkit. A lot of the resources are on our website for them to access.


Carol: Perfect. Thank you. I appreciate that.


Carol Clancy: If I could just comment on that on the transition website, there is something called transition tidbits that you can subscribe to. So whoever is interested, they can subscribe to transition tidbits and it'll give you everything updated that we're doing in Pennsylvania regarding transition. And we've already had hits across the world. So we have hits all over the country, but we've also had hits in Europe and other countries based on the work that's happening.


Carol: Good to know. That's awesome. So Missy, I'm over to you now.


Missy: Yeah. And I think you all kind of touched on what we were going to get too next because, you know, I think what we get so impressed by with what's happening in Pennsylvania is not just what you've wanted to do, but the actual implementation of it. So when it comes to the professional development or creating those sustainability pieces with regard to the tools or the positions, what's coming next for you guys? What's next?


Carol Clancy: Well, I think that both Shannon and I operate with the perspective that there really isn't any limit. So we have the 3 things we want to implement over the next year. But we already brainstorming what is the following year. But the priorities are these 3 initiatives coming forward. But we would anticipate as much as we can developing tools for the fields targeting deeper and deeper to our area of needs, such as focusing on particular populations. What students that have blind and visual impairments need is very different than what students with autism may need, or students with very complex abilities that may need some customized employment options. We certainly want to work and focused on developing them and developing the community. There is a lot of work at Pennsylvania, at the state level directed toward employment of people with disabilities. So we're aligning our work with the governor's initiative, which include initiative around preparing model employers. And Shannon, I'll let you talk about that because you've been much more involved in that, but we are going to ensure that the work that we're doing is lined up with the overall work at the state level to support employers.


Shannon: So as Carol said, we have so much going on here in Pennsylvania beyond just the agency. When you're talking about employment and individuals with disabilities like we are probably at the center of our purpose when it comes to WioA, IDEA,, we are employment first state, we have that twenty six. We're also very active, as Carol said, in a grant to really focus on employer engagement and over our course as a dual customer system, and that we work with customers with disabilities, but we also engage with employers to make sure and become that bridge for them. And here in Pennsylvania, we're at any year working with anywhere from 2,000 to 3,000 employers. When you look at all the placements that we do here in Pennsylvania, so the commitment that we have in trying to bring it to the next level is always something that we're trying to expand current relationships that we have with employers to see where we can do more, especially with high school students, because I think WIO was really a turning point for the VR system, and some will say that it was earthshaking because we was not working with students 14 to 21 years of age prior to this. So with the implementation of WIO, it really was a key changer for the VR system and the workforce system in itself that we would establish ourselves as part of the 6 core programs in the workforce development system to do more collaboration.


With that being said, we should be strategic planning together. We should be cutting down supplanting of services, duplication of services and there needs to be more coordination, collaboration. And with this during the MOA, it has allowed us over and education to do exactly some of the things that WIO intended in the workforce system. So what are we going to do? We're going to continue to do a lot of professional development. We're committed to that. You're no stronger than your workforce, me and Carol. We're doing the policy. The policy has to become alive and implementable and practical for the field. So we're committed to make sure that they have the toolkit that the tools that they need in order to implement the services and they need to understand the services. My hope is that we are cheerleaders for the staff that we're going to encourage. We're going to uplift them and give them the support that they need and understand what it is to implement the service and work with students and families here in the Commonwealth to make sure that the service is implemented seamlessly.


Carol: Well, what you two Are doing is so exciting, like this is unbelievable, and I'm thrilled and I'm sure our listeners are like going, Oh my gosh, but how do I start? So I want to ask both of you and I'm going to ask Carol first. The advice that you might have for states who are struggling because we still have that, I know we're seven and a half years in, but we still have states like we're not talking the Education Bureau, not talking or there's disagreements. Or maybe there's talking, but they're really not getting anything going. Do you have any advice for those states that are struggling?


Carol Clancy: Yes, I can. I think the number one thing to keep in mind is the students in which we serve. Keep them at the front of every conversation and the mission. Because if you get siloed in your own agency and the rules you need to follow or the missions behind your agency, you really can lose what your focus is supposed to be. So stay focused on the students and the outcomes that you are responsible for together. So that's a mission. Enough to work together is that there are outcomes that need to happen and that you both need to work toward that you're both accountable for. But I think most important and we've said this numerous times, but I'm just going to emphasize that enough. You can't forget the field and how it's implemented. Often at the state. We can create best practice in an ideal scenario, but it loses its translation in the implementation if you don't know what it looks like to be implemented in the field. So if they are on a place where I would say they need to start talking to the field, they need to start talking to the people doing the work right now. What are the barriers? Why isn't it working and working from that point forward to know what should be happening and their language should be? What do you need? Here are some options. What can I do to help? How can we support you and blah blah blah? Not this is how it's supposed to happen and do it. It has to be. What do you need to make this happen? And we're here to help you. And what's the best way we can help you to make this happen?


Carol: Well said, sage advice. So Shannon, I'm going to leave the last words of wisdom to you.


Shannon: So just a couple of things in agreement with everything that Carroll said. My background is business services, so I'm going to start right here. Relationships are key. Unless you have a relationship, you don't do business with people you don't trust. That is the same thing that we have been talking about through this whole process is about relationships. There has to be a starting point. If there is none, begin to get one. If you have one, strengthen it. I think that's our starting point because me and Carol prior to this do not have a working relationship whatsoever. So it was from the very beginning, but the MOU was our starting point. The second thing that made it successful or has made it successful is our commitment to this partnership and collaboration. Commitment has to start from the top. And when I tell you that it filters down through the layers, it becomes a very intentional document when working through and trying to create one, the MOU.. But just a partnership that we have because of the MOU. It created the environment where we were really strategically planning on what our partnership was going to look like. We were very clear on that expectation. Who was going to do what we wanted to make sure that we had supporting documentation for our staff. So we were very intentional in how we were going to roll out the MOU with our staff. We committed to communication, continuous communication. We don't know what we don't know and what we don't understand. We need to clarify, especially at this level, because if it's cloudy and unclear at the top, it's going to filter down through the agencies and implementing a policy. I'm in strong agreement with Carol saying that we did not want this employee to just be a document where it was just a policy. We met the requirement. We met the compliance piece of the obligation. We wanted to make sure that it was implementable, that it was a live living document that we were constantly put in our eyes on because we were committed to the mission of transitioning students that we were working with in both our systems and that we were working together to do that and that we were on the same page. And literally through this process, it continues to grow. And really, the sky is the limit for anyone that's willing to put in the time the work and the effort and the commitment to doing something as we have in Pennsylvania.


Carol: Well, I'm adding an exclamation point to that word commitment that you said over and over this morning. I just think that it's incredible and it's coming through loud and clear. So thanks to you both for taking the time today to discuss this really super important topic, and we wish you the best in all of your endeavors. Thanks much.


Missy: Thank you, guys.


Shannon: Thank you.


Carol Clancy: Thank you.



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