Nov 6, 2023
In the studio today are Joan Phillips, Assistant Commissioner at the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission, and Michelle Banks, DIF Strategic Director for MRC.
Find out how MRC is turning VR on its head. What would they do differently in the first year, and what results would they see after year 2? Learn about the success of the job certification program, and how they are meeting the "NextGen-ers" where they are at.
Hear how Joan and Michelle encourage others to take on a DIF Grant to help bring more innovation and creative ideas to VR.
Learn more about the NextGen Initiative.
Joan: If you are committed to this field, please apply for a DIF grant. Bring your ideas forward so we can infuse the future of VR with new energy and achieve more outcomes for individuals with disabilities who come to us, really depending on us, to help them make life changing decisions.
Michelle: We're moving more and more young adults into trainings. We've developed training partnerships in technology, in health care. We're trying to forge our way into biotech.
Joan: I'm always challenging staff. What else? How else?
Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.
Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are Joan Phillips, assistant commissioner at the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission, and Michelle Banks, DIF strategic director for MRC. So, Joan, how are things going at MRC?
Joan: Things are going really well. We are extremely busy working hard to ensure that the individuals who come to us seeking employment have every opportunity to get the training and to be upskilled and to gain employment. We are very, very busy but very happy.
Carol: Well, and of course, under Tony, she keeps you very busy because Tony's got a lot of great ideas. I love that.
Joan: She's got a lot of energy, more than all of us, that's for sure.
Carol: How about you, Michelle? How are things going for you?
Michelle: Good, busy is the word. Our project is well underway. Got a lot of participants. We've got a lot of interested folks and a lot of optimism for what we're about to achieve here. So it's going well.
Carol: I'm super excited to dig into this because I know our listeners have been really excited. And so this is the third podcast in a series focused on the Disability Innovation Fund career advancement projects. And I want to just do a little quick recap for our listeners about this particular round of the Disability Innovation Fund grants. So grant activities are geared to support innovative activities aimed at improving the outcomes of individuals with disabilities. And the Career Advancement Initiative model demonstrations funded back in 2021 were intended to identify and demonstrate practices that are supported by evidence to assist VR eligible individuals with disabilities, including previously served VR participants in employment who reenter the program to do the following. And it was to advance in high demand, high quality careers like science, technology, engineering, and math or those STEM careers, to enter career pathways in industry driven sectors through pre apprenticeships, registered apprenticeships and industry recognized apprenticeship programs to improve and maximize the competitive integrated outcomes, economic self-sufficiency, independence and inclusion in society and reduce reliance on public benefits like SSI, SSDI and or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and any state or local benefits. Also, when we think back, Congress made career pathways a necessary, if not foundational, part of WIOA's workforce reforms and states, for example, are required to include career pathways and workforce development systems. They're required to have them in their local plans that they have. So it's been really fun because each of the other agencies that we featured to date has taken a really uniquely Different approach, and I'm excited to unpack what's happening with you all. So, Joan, I'm going to start with you. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got into VR.
Joan: I actually have a master's degree in rehabilitation, but spent a significant amount of my career working in the private sector. I feel that those experiences really informed my positions that I've held at MRC. I came in as a director of one of our local offices, and four years later I was promoted to Assistant Commissioner. So that's a little glimpse into my journey. I have significant experience in Workforce Development, disability determination to determine eligibility for disability benefits, working with young adults with disabilities, individuals with severe physical disabilities. And I'm very fortunate to be in this career.
Carol: Well, it's always fun to see how people make their way to VR. We all get here some way. It can be a long and winding road sometimes, or a very direct path in. So Michelle, how about you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Michelle: Sure, mine might reflect a long, winding part when it comes to Vocational Rehabilitation, but I've spent my career working with young adults. I started in the health care sector and then moved to juvenile justice. And then spent about 20 years in public child welfare, and I was the director of Adolescent and Young Adult Services for the Massachusetts Department of Children and Families, where I was helping the agency pursue transition related outcomes, one of them being employment with a group of young adults who were going to leave the public child welfare system without returning home or being adopted. So they had their lives, were calling for an enormous amount of independence, saw a lot of inequity when it came to economic stability, and could see a lot of pathways in things that could be done differently. I had worked with MRC a bit in that role and saw what they were doing, and when I realized that they got this funding to help young adults in particular, really try to have gratifying career pathways that were going to help them achieve economic stability in ways that many of their peers have the opportunity to do. I jumped right on it. So that's how I landed with MRC and have been excited to be working in this role ever since.
Carol: Very cool. So you're well positioned for the role you're in now. That is great. So, Joan, can you paint us a picture of MRC? Like how many staff do you have? How many people do you serve? A little bit more about what it's like in Massachusetts.
Joan: Yeah. So the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission provides services that break down barriers and empower people with disabilities to live life on their own terms. Our programs focus on career services, home and community life, and disability determination for federal benefit programs. We like to say that we're change agents and community builders, and we put the people we serve at the heart of everything we do. I'm the Assistant Commissioner of the Vocational Rehabilitation Division. That division serves over 15,000 individuals annually. We have over 300 staff, which includes directors of our local offices, regional managers, statewide managers, vocational rehabilitation counselors, placement and employment specialists, counselors for the deaf and hard of hearing, various clerical positions, supervisors. And hopefully I haven't missed anyone. The NextGen initiative, which you'll hear about, has some broad and some interesting staffing positions that we hope will inform VR moving forward in the future, and you'll hear more about that later.
Carol: So just a side note, I wondered, how are you guys faring kind of coming out of the pandemic? Are you seeing an upswing in the number of people that you're serving?
Joan: Absolutely. The numbers are increasing in terms of the numbers being served and also the numbers of individuals who are getting employment. We had a downswing during the pandemic, but now it's moving in the right direction and we're really excited to see that.
Carol: Good, that's good to hear. Been kind of hearing that trend across the country and I'm super happy about that. Well, I know your commissioner, Tony Wolf. I think she's amazing. She's done a lot of very cool things. She comes with a whole interesting background as well. And I know she's been super supportive and I feel like is always on the cutting edge of improving services. Talk about the support you've received from Tony and kind of throughout your agency for this project.
Joan: Her vision is really to modernize our organization, to modernize the Voc rehab divisions, to be relevant to this generation and future generations of individuals with disabilities. So we're all aligning ourselves. I said earlier, she's got much more energy than all of us combined. So we're trying to keep up with her and her ideas and moving forward.
Carol: Very cool. So, Michelle, big picture. Let's break down the grant. What do you propose to do with this grant? And what are you hoping to accomplish?
Michelle: So in this grant cycle we are looking to get 1000 NextGen-ers. So young adults 18 to 30 years old with disabilities into career pathways that are STEM related. We're going to do that in a few different ways, but our goal is to really open their minds to see how they can be successful in STEM careers, help them develop the tools that they're going to need to make the right career decision for them, understand how they can be successful and happy, and really achieve that economic stability that you were talking about and I was talking about earlier. It's an Innovation grant. So we're doing things differently than they've been done in the past. One of the things that we're doing is we have a learning experience that we provide to all of our NextGen-ers, and it's called Self CARES. Self CARES is an acronym, stands for Self-capacity self-advocacy, self-realization and Self Sufficiency. So it's really understanding. Ending who you are as a worker, what you want out of that, what your strengths and limitations are, what you're going to need to advocate for yourself once you become someone's employee and how you can work independently. And in NextGen, we don't see independence as being alone. We see it as accessing, first of all, having access to services, being able to access them, and harnessing the things that are available in your life to help you be successful at work. So that's our learning experience, Self CARES. And we also have these really creatively built teams looking at success in other sectors and within vocational rehabilitation itself that we've developed these roles within these teams. They include a peer mentor for every NextGener.
The moment that they walk into our doors, we actually walk through their doors because we're community based, which is another innovative component. We have family partners, so the families of all of our NextGen-ers have a partner available to them on our team to ensure that their voice is NextGen-ers life and how they can contribute to a successful career. We also have employment success specialists, we have career counselors. We have specialty counselors for our NextGen-ers with sensory disabilities. We have a specialty counselor for blind low vision, NextGen-ers, and deaf hard of hearing NextGen-ers. And we have regional supervisors because we are based in these communities. We have three communities in the Commonwealth that we're serving right now as part of the grant. What's really different is these teams hold the NextGen-ers together, so it's not a 1 to 1 relationship. For example, with a counselor we're testing out, what is it like when you have these multi disciplines in they're all available to you. And we know that young adults like choice. So they choose who in this team is their team lead who they want to talk to, who they're going to return the text from. You know, who can get them where they want to be. But the rest of the team doesn't go away. They stay right there at the table to bring what they're disciplined forward and help move the young adult into work. Those are the main components of our program. I always look to Joan for a moment because she can fill in what I may have forgotten.
Joan: So NextGen is about quick wins. You know, we really want to help the young adults focus on those certificate programs and apprenticeships that are short term. They're not. We're not talking about putting people into a degree program, but a certificate program where there is a demand in the market sector for those skills and that they have a high probability of obtaining employment, making higher wages.
Carol: I love that you're doing that, that focus on, you know, everybody always was thinking, you have to have this four year degree or you got to get your master's, you got to get your doctorate. You know, all that. That is not for everyone. And there are so many good careers out there where you just need this little bit, like this certificate or you do the apprenticeship. Lots of people learn better, hands on. I remember my son, one of his friends in high school is an apprentice to be a plumber. I'm like, Chase, he's going to make more money than everybody because everybody needs plumbers. And that was his thing. He doesn't want to go to school and do the book learning. He learns so much better via hands on. So I like that approach because everybody doesn't want to go to college.
Joan: Yeah, you know what's really interesting is that right now, because of employers being unable to fill so many positions, everybody is looking at their entrance requirements to say, do we really need somebody with a degree? Is this something that somebody could learn on the job? Is this something if they got a certificate in this particular area, would that be sufficient? So I think we're on the cutting edge. We're on the cutting edge of preparing young adults to meet the demands of the labor market. And we're really excited about this. The good news is that if somebody completes a certificate program, gets a job and decides they want a degree, many employers are paying for those degrees. So the young person doesn't have these huge debts that they need to pay back. So that's one of the exciting things about NextGen. And that's one of the things that we inform the participants about that you can get a degree later if you decide that that's a path that you want to take.
Carol: Well, your timing couldn't be more perfect. I mean, I really feel like the pandemic sort of set all this up where people kind of flipped employment on its ear, and people are starting to see that not everybody needs to go to college, and there's lots of different ways to achieve that kind of ultimate career goal that you want to get to. There's a lot of ways to get there. So I think your timing is spot on. So let's talk about the first year. What kind of struggles did you guys encounter? Because I've heard it from the other DIF grantees. They're like, you know, that first year we had some problems, but what kind of struggles did you encounter in year one and what would you have done differently?
Michelle: I think that we used the analogy building the plane as you're flying it a lot. We are very optimistic about reaching our goals. Five years is a very short time to pursue some of these things. So Joan was the crafter of the implementation strategy really, and implementing, you know, building the program, opening the program, staffing the program, delivering the service at the same time is a very rapid pace. So I think that the biggest challenge would be the pace. At the same time, we're asking our NextGen-ers to work really hard in a short period of time to get a big outcome. So we've got to be doing the same thing.
Joan: You know, it's really funny when you write something on paper. It looks so beautiful and. And somewhat easy you know. But then reality hits that you have to, you know, this is a program that's serving people and you need to be strategic around implementation. And how are you going to deliver what it is that you've promised your funders that you're going to deliver? You know, if there was one thing that I could, we spent a lot of time drafting job descriptions, hiring staff, training staff, setting up infrastructure. If there was one thing that I could change as we rolled into year two and began to do outreach and recruitment, I looked back and said, I wish we had done outreach and recruitment in the first year, with a timeline set as to when the program would start. You know, took us a while to get the momentum going for recruitment. We're actually exceeding recruitment goals right now, but it was very stressful in the beginning thinking we weren't going to meet that number.
Carol: So that's a really good tip because I know folks have said the first year is sort of a drag because of the government processes. You have to write your position description and get it approved, and then you've got to post and then you're going to hire. And so you're waiting, waiting, waiting to kind of get going with the program. And then year two, It's like, holy cow, pedal to the metal really quickly, where I love that idea of ramping up and making people aware of what's going on as you're getting these things done. So it isn't quite that just huge forcefulness that needs to happen right away in year two. That makes really good sense. So since you're saying your outreach is going really well, I was going to ask you, I know you guys have a really I call it a groovy way of talking, so I may date myself, but I love how you guys talk about this program because it's exciting. You know, I love your NextGen-ers. I like when you were talking about employee success specialists. Like, I want to be one of those, you know, that kind of cool stuff that you're doing. So how are you connecting with your potential customers? And I'm going to shoot that to you, Michelle.
Michelle: Yeah, we have had a really dynamic and exciting outreach and marketing campaign. I have to talk first about our digital and print collateral, because when we were at CSAVR last year, it just flew off the shelf. They were so impressed with it. They wanted it to take it back to their state and see how they could replicate it. Marketing to young adults. Young adults get marketed to a lot, right? They are exposed to things that new ideas and people that want their presence, their money, their time. So you have a lot of competition out there, and you have to think about what's going to get their attention. So we had a digital and print media campaign in multiple languages. We want to ensure that we are serving young adults that have been under engaged in the past, and that includes specific racial and ethnic demographics. So we needed to make sure that the imagery on this collateral looked like them, look like the people we wanted to come into our program with. So diverse representation, they're young adults. Some had visual disabilities in the print collateral. They were living their lives, you know, so that folks could see that and really see themselves represented. And then also in their languages as well. We have multiple languages, and then everything from like the colors that we use to the background we used. We lifted that from other media campaigns that were for young adults specifically that we knew were successful.
So real intentionality in a lot of time was put into that and a great partnership with our coms team. They were there before I got to the table and were so excited to do this work, and it really came through and what they were able to produce. We also went to social media. We launched social media campaigns. On Tik Tok reached close to 1500 views on that. We went to Facebook and Instagram, but we knew our demographic was really on Instagram and TikTok, so that was our area of focus. We did dynamic reels for them, and then we also just did what you would call like a flat still photograph, you know, using our digital media. So we're able to reach a lot of people that way. Then we went out every time we hired somebody and they were trained on the program, we put them out into the community to go find young adults, families and the systems that serve them. So we established partnerships with health and human service sister agencies serving our demographic as well as high schools were a great partner for us. We used some contracted services so that we could harness other relationships that were in the community. Cultural brokers, any type of neighborhood event, community event we were out at trying to we knew that the power wasn't speaking directly to young adults and directly to families, so that was always our focus. And multilingual capacity is really important there as well.
Carol: Yeah, I remember your materials flying off the table. People were like, holy cow, it is, it's like you've brought this whole fresh perspective into VR.
Michelle: Just one more thing. If anybody's listening that was of a huge assistance to us was a QR code on our print material. I just wanted to share that our potential NextGen-ers or their families could scan the QR code came directly to our landing page in a one page inquiry sheet.
Carol: You would now be proud of me because I saw that I was like, so we now have QR codes we're using on everything. So we do if we're doing evaluations, we go anywhere. We use a QR code instead of like, we're sending you this paper evaluation. We're just like we do the QR code. In fact, at our table coming up at the conference, I have QR codes that folks can just scan to get to our resources instead of like, dragging a bunch of paper along. So you're starting a revolution, you guys. It's awesome, I love it. So what kind of results are you seeing now that year two is completed? I think Michelle go to you first.
Michelle: We're moving more and more young adults into trainings. We've developed training partnerships in technology, in health care. We're trying to forge our way into biotech. So our NextGen-ers are coming in at the younger side around 22. So a lot of them do not have significant work history and have never heard of these fields before. They didn't get a lot of exposure to that in their high school experience. So we're doing a lot of career exploration and helping them into these trainings. We're doing some cohort trainings with some partners. So these are just NextGen-ers that we're able to hold together, serve as a group, give them peer support, give them support outside of the training or academics that are happening for them. And we're getting a lot of feedback on how to do that effectively with them. They don't like to meet in the morning. They don't want to meet after dinner. You've lost them permanently. But and they like individualized support. So as they're in these trainings, it's great and very helpful to them to meet as groups and peers. But they also want to be able to privately ask a question if they're struggling with any material, or maybe not quite sure this is a good fit for them. So needing to be really available to really understand what these trainings are, what is being asked of them, and then being able to provide that support. And if we can't provide it, connecting with the training provider to help them understand what the student experience is as well. And we've got some young adults moving into work as well. We again needed to open their minds to STEM careers. And sometimes when you've had no career or no job, you need to start somewhere. So we are looking a lot at some folks that are heading to work in. Our work is nowhere near done, right? They're getting their first job and they're learning what they like and what they don't like there. But the idea is to move more towards a career focused pathway.
Carol: Yeah. Very cool. That's the thing about demonstration projects you learn along the way, which I love, like you're learning little nuances, especially when you're working with that age group. Like, yeah, like after dinner you can and not too early in the morning. You're like all those different pieces, the ways you think you have it set up, and then you go, well, that didn't work so well. We're going to pivot. Joan, did you have some thoughts on that too?
Joan: Yeah, I was just going to say one exciting thing for me is employers engaging with us differently. For example, we have Red River who really stepped up and said we would love to offer an IT training for some of your participants who are interested in that field and their staff delivering the training for these young adults. And the hope is that, you know, many of them will get employment with Red River and other organizations. They brought Cisco and others to the table. And, you know, the opportunities. You know, if these individuals succeed in this area, it's wide. It's wide, wide open. Employer engagement. Also involves coming to talk to the young adults about different jobs in STEM, what it's like to work for their organizations, and etcetera. So it's beautiful to see the employers engaging at that level and who else to give relevant information but the employers.
Carol: Yeah, that's brilliant.
Joan: I walked into one of our conference rooms the other day, and there were 20 young people just focused on taking computers apart, and they didn't even notice me walking in the room. They were so engaged in the process. It was just, just beautiful. Just beautiful.
Carol: I think that's super smart, you know, because we can do it. You sit there and you go, well, you've got your counselors and they're talking about different jobs, but nothing better than people in that field. That particular company. And those companies are smart for hooking up with you guys too, because they have such a need for staff. And so that partnership, like the partnerships you're developing all the way through this, that's amazing. It's very cool. Joan, now I know you talk to me too, about your philosophy when it comes to VR. Can you share that with our listeners? You have some very cool perspective, and I know I can't, I can't say it like you say it.
Joan: Yeah, I've been in the field for a really, really long time, and my greatest desire is to see individuals with disabilities in high level, higher paying jobs. It's time for us to move out of retail flowers and filth. And I can't remember the other half, but, you know,
Joan: and food services. Yes. It's time for us to move there. And I'm extremely excited to see where these NextGen-ers end up as we focus them on potentially jobs and careers that they've never heard of. You know, it's about exposing them to that. I'm always challenging staff. What else? How else? When I came to Mass Rehab, I was very surprised that our organization had been around for about 50 years and that the business community didn't know about us. I'm saying to myself, how are we getting people to work? And the types of jobs that people were getting really demonstrated that we were not connected to the business community. So it was my vision to drive that connection, to hire staff specifically focused on building relationships with the business community, nurturing those relationships, bringing information back to the counselors who are giving the advice around careers, and really developing a feeder system by having individuals who are managing business accounts, who speak their language, you know, who understand their culture and can help us to become much more innovative in preparing the individuals we serve and building the talent pipeline for the employers.
Carol: Good on you. I love that you speak to my heart. I know back when I was at State Services for the Blind in Minnesota and we were trying to expose our Pre-ETS students, that's why we started podcasts. Back then. We wanted to expose students to other kinds of work out there, because a lot of times our young folks who were blind or visually impaired, they just thought, I'm going to be a Walmart greeter. I can't do anything else. And it's like they had no idea I would cry, literally when we would do these student interviews and when people would kind of sell themselves short. It really hit my heart. And so the world is wide open. There's so many awesome opportunities that our folks can fill, you know, and you champion that I think is just brilliant.
Joan: Yeah, I mean, young adults with disabilities need to know that individuals with disabilities are CEOs. They are CFOs. They are IT professionals. You know, they're in the medical field. They're doctors, nurses, firemen. I mean, they're in every business sector. And I really believe that it is our job as VR professionals to expose those individuals to those careers and to really help them to think about their abilities. And, you know, what they have to bring to the table and how can we help them? Our job is to help them make informed decisions. Right? So we need to be informed about the labor market so that the information that we're transferring to these young adults is relevant to the current labor market. I think the NextGeneration of individuals with disabilities are not going to put up with working in a supermarket, bagging groceries. They want to be doing things that give them a great salary and offer them career ladder opportunities. And we're starting with NextGen.
Carol: They're going to be running that grocery store. They're not just bagging the groceries.
Joan: There you go.
Carol: They're going to own it. They're going to own that store. I love that. So, Joan, I know you also talked about the support you've had from RSA. Can you describe that for the listeners with this grant that there's been just really great support?
Joan: Doug Ziou has been an incredible supporter and a great cheerleader of MRC. I mean, everything we bring to the table, he's just. Yes. Do it. Yes. Do it. Very, very supportive, asking great questions, challenging us in ways that we need to be challenged but extremely, extremely supportive. And we're truly grateful that we have Doug on our side.
Carol: Yeah, I've heard that with all the project officers, I mean, like, they are super excited and really invested in these grants. It's almost like it's their babies or something. And they just love this so much. I'm really glad to hear that. Michelle, did you have anything you wanted to add to that?
Michelle: No, I was nodding. I realized this is a podcast, but I was just nodding furiously as Joan was talking. Working with Doug has just been such a pleasure, and you never get off a call with him without just feeling completely pumped about what you're about to go do and see all the possibility in it, because, you know, he does.
Carol: Yeah, I like that. They really cheerlead for that. So for those listeners that would like to apply for a DIF grant but have been afraid to do so, what advice would you give to others? Michelle. I'm going to hit you up with that first.
Michelle: I think that engaging potential employer partners, stakeholders, families are critical in not just the design and implementation phase, but hanging on to those partners, remembering what they told you in the beginning, revisiting that to give them a feedback loop on how you're incorporating their ideas to keep their partnership going, even when it's like, hey, remember you said that maybe you thought you could take on a few NextGen-ers in your organization? We're there now, keeping in contact, revisiting conversations. You know, I think that in a lot of grants, we bring our stakeholders to the table when we're applying for the funding and maybe even right when we first get it. And then we let them go away a little bit. So keep them there, keep them in the conversation. Update them on how things are progressing. Continue to ask questions. The world is different than it was two years ago, so our questions should be different as well. So that we're staying current in that partnership is staying current. And I can't stress family engagement enough and how powerful it is with young adults. Most family engagement models were born to serve children, and our young adults continue to have the bulk of their support come from their family members. I think everybody through the life course has the bulk of their support come through their family members. So why would you not have their voice at the table? Why would you not have their ideas? Why would you not consult with them on the course that you're setting with the NextGener, or because they have a lot of insight to share, they have a lot of resources to offer. So continuing that conversation in as well with that very unique set of stakeholders I would recommend.
Carol: Yeah, well said. Joan, any advice you have for our listeners?
Joan: Yeah. I mean, if you are nervous about applying for a grant, this is what I say. Are you an innovative thinker? Are you tired of VR the way it is and you would like to see change? Then I say go for it. VR needs some inspiration, some new strategies to move to the next level. If you are committed to this field, please apply for a DIF grant. Bring your ideas forward so we can infuse the future of VR with new energy and achieve more outcomes for individuals with disabilities who come to us, really depending on us, to help them make life changing decisions. I just want to share a story of a young adult who worked with MRC. He came to us, he was working in a pizza establishment, and he heard about our job driven training in cybersecurity. He applied even though he wasn't sure that that's an area that he could succeed in, graduated the top of the class, and is now earning over $80,000 a year. We want to replicate that 1000 times over with NextGen, and I would love for VR nationally to replicate that story. We want people to make wages that they can live on, that they can support a family on, that they can purchase a home or a car or, you know, live in a nice apartment. We want people to get off of Social Security disability benefits. That is buying into a lifetime of poverty. So we're depending on people with innovative and creative ideas to make that change. Don't be afraid of a DIF, grant. Jump in with both feet and let's make change happen for voc rehab.
Carol: Hear hear, you guys are going to turn VR on its head for sure, I love it. So Michelle, what would be the best way for our listeners to contact you if they wanted to follow up with any questions or like to see any information?
Michelle: Absolutely, we have a landing page. It's very impressive. I think it has this component where you can see videos of all of our NextGen staff. We did that for young adults to be able to check us out in the way that they like to check people out before they engage with them. It's https://www.mass.gov/nextgen-careers and anybody could email me any time MichelleBanks2, the number two, @mass.gov.
Carol: Excellent. You guys have been awesome. I'm so excited and I'm really hoping to check back in with you in a couple of years. As you get further along in the journey, maybe we can do a little repeat podcast and go like, hey, everybody is making they're not making 80,000 Joan. People are making 100 grand and these guys are living their best life. It is happening, I love it. Thank you both so much for participating in this podcast today. Appreciate it.
Joan: Thank you so much.
Michelle: Thank you.
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